Up Close With PSR
Craig Patrick and David Littlefield

Craig Patrick and David Littlefield have found themselves in similar situations recently. Both general managers are operating in a small market and within leagues where they face challenging labor conditions. Patrick and Littlefield sat down with PSR's Bob Grove, John Sacco and Tony DeFazio at PNC Park recently to discuss the similar challenges and demands each faces.

PSR: You're both trying to bring struggling franchises to a point where they can compete for championships. Where are you in that process, and what are the skills a GM must have to do it successfully?

DL: I think where we're at right now is much different than even a year ago, even though we have similar records. We've changed the composition of the roster, where last year we had a lot of one-year players to fill in the gaps based on the fact we didn't have players internally as options; they weren't ready coming from the minor-league system. Whereas this year it's a much younger group, maybe the youngest or second-youngest in the major leagues. It's really more of a group that we're going to build on and keep for many years to come. We still have some pieces around them we have to fit in. We have some gaps - we lack some power, there's some areas around the diamond we have to shore up. But we've gone through really a transformation in the last year, but certainly still have a ways to go to build a championship. As far as the skills it takes, I'm actually interested, with Craig's experience, to hear what he has to say. He's got a lot more insight into that than I do, but I think in general I've learned being in this job for three years, you have to wear a lot of different hats. You have to use the experience of the people you work with to give you insight into a lot of different areas.

CP: In our situation, we could see it coming. We knew we were going to be losing all our top players, we had some real good, talented guys that were going to be too pricey for us. We knew it, we could see it coming for the last three or four years and we started to really try to build up our minor league system, and I think our staff did a really good job of finding some players at a young age who could come in and fill a gap. We got to the point where, at the trade deadline a year and a half ago, we let our last top-quality players go. We knew we were going to be bare-bones this year, but we felt that we were in a much better position because we had planned for it than what we could have been. Now we're starting to reap some benefits of some of the planning. Young guys are coming in and doing a really good job, and we feel we're on the upswing again. Hopefully, we can get to where we were quicker even than we hoped.

PSR: Craig, is this the biggest challenge you've faced as a GM?

CP: To me, managing any professional team is a big challenge every year. The challenges are just a little different, but they're all of the same magnitude as far as I'm concerned.

PSR: The guys who are helping you get this rebuilding job done, Lloyd McClendon and Ed Olczyk, obviously are critical to the process. What makes them the right fit for you?

DL: I think Lloyd's versatility, being able to work with all different types of players. As I said when I came here in 2001, Lloyd had been managing that first season and we obviously had some issues. We ended up with the worst record in baseball, and probably were dealing with some multi-year contracts with some players that weren't performing as well as we hoped and also a minor-league system that wasn't developing the number of players that we hoped. So he had to deal with, frankly, not enough talent to compete. From a GM's standpoint, one of the things I think I have to do is to provide him with a better level of talent. There have been times where we were maybe a little overmatched, whether it's experience-wise or talent-wise, throughout the last few years, and sometimes that's a harder hand to deal with as a manager. And oftentimes, it's hard to analyze and evaluate what kind of job the manager does because they don't have all the resources to work with. But dealing with the variety of players - whether it's the veteran, the rookie, which we've had to deal with in the last three years I've been here - is part of what has enabled him to do a solid job. I think he's a tough, hard-nosed guy that demands a certain level of effort and that, for me, is always required - whatever level of team you have.

CP: I have to give credit to all our pro scouts and amateur scouts. They're really the ones that got the young talent together. Edzo came in at exactly the wrong time (laughing), because we were at rock bottom when he got here. But we needed a fresh voice and a fresh face, and we needed someone with a plan that could work with our young guys. And he did an outstanding job last year bringing the team along, as evidenced by our finish at the end of the year. And we anticipate that's going to carry on going forward.

PSR: You both work in sports where there's a definitive line between franchises that have the wealth and others whose financial resources are limited. How do you attack your jobs knowing that, trying to compete in an arena where the playing field is really not level? And when you go out in the market, you know there are some guys you're not going to get. How do you deal with that?

DL: We all, working together in the organization, understand that there are issues in regards to different resources that people have. But from a leadership position, one of the things I often point to is this is not an excuse to use. This is just the reality of where we are. And as a message to people, I also let them know, when you look out there in the industry, and we've all worked in the industry for quite a few years, that there are teams out there, the Oaklands, the Minnesotas, the Marlins, who are doing it with similar resources that we have. So sure, it's an uphill climb, it's challenging, as Craig says, every year. But there are people out there doing it, so it can be accomplished. Obviously, you want to emulate some of the things that people are doing who are successful. Some of it, you've got to change the mentality, the attitude. But, in my opinion, I'm not an excuse-maker. I understand the accountability and responsibility of the position, and I send that as a message to our staff. . . we're digging ourselves out of a hole and have certainly put a more competitive product out there - but it's not satisfactory, because winning a championship is where you want to go. I look at trying to get bang for our buck in every type of decision that we make. We're trying to get value for every dollar that we spend out there, so that whatever resources we have, whether it's in the amateur field, the draft, in Latin America to sign players, waiver claims, trades, free-agent signings, minor-league signings. . . everywhere we can try to get as much bang for the buck as possible.

CP: I can echo everything Dave just said. I don't think we've been in this mode as long as the Pirates have, so we're kind of new at it, but we're also hopeful it's over. We're hopeful September 15 (when the NHL's collective bargaining agreement with its players association expires) will bring us a new system where we don't have these problems. So hopefully we don't have to be doing the same thing going forward. But it is a challenge. The big thing that Dave said is that every dollar you spend, you've got to make sure it's well spent.

DL: One thing I have realized, and I'm sure Craig's got more experience and has lived through it more, the other part of it in this position is that it doesn't always work that way. I mean, it's a very public. . . the decisions you make are very public and you have to accept - not that you want it to happen - but in my humble opinion here with limited experience, you have to expect that you're going to make some mistakes. And they're out in the open. I can look at the roster and tell you, 'Hey, this guy is not as productive as I thought he would be.' And, 'I wish this had happened a little better,' whether it's pitching, hitting, defense or whatever it may be. Yet the reality of it is that you've got to have the plus side far outweigh the minus side. But you're always going to have minuses. As much as you're shooting to do that, and you're getting direction from different people and making those decisions, the reality of it is you're going to make some mistakes - as we all do.

PSR: So you guys have to be thick-skinned. Craig, many times people bring up your trade for Ron Francis, and others bring up Alex Stojanov.

CP: Yeah. You're going to make mistakes for sure. But you're also going to make mistakes on underestimating what some people can do. You can bring people in, you think, 'This is what he's going to do,' but he far surpasses that as well. So it evens out.

PSR: Is there a danger of falling into a trap of a small-market mentality, that mentality being that you're doomed and you're only going to be able achieve a certain level of success?

DL: I don't know if I'd call it a trap. I think it's unfortunately part of the current existence of the Pirates with not having gotten to .500 as one of those labels that we're carrying right now for so many years. From a fan base, it's kind of the concern: 'Can we ever get out of the hole? Can we ever get ahead?' Sure, you can point to Oakland, you point to Minnesota, you point to Florida, you point to the minor-league system. You know, three guys did that previous to me getting here for the last 10 or 12 years. I've taken the approach and the attitude and tried to send this message that I do understand that attitude. I don't want to hear it necessarily, but I do understand it being a fan in general. And my thoughts are basically it's my job to help improve the product and show people, show the fans, that it can be done. It isn't just me saying, 'Wait for three more years until the players in Altoona and Nashville get here and we're going to have a good club.' We've got to show improvement at the major league level to show fans that, hey, there is some hope. Last year was kind of a stop-gap, frankly, because we just didn't have players in our system. . . But the reality is that for us to have success in this marketplace, we've got to do it from within our own system. There's so many economic advantages to the number of years you can keep players, and all the other aspects of pride and hope and that sort of thing, where now we've got some young talented guys that I do believe, even though we've dropped payroll quite significantly, we've gone from an older club to a younger club. . . we're playing at a similar pace if not a little better, and I think many people can see this group being together, in general, for the next four or five years. If they continue to grow, we should have some positive results. Talent will push the whole thing, but we've got to improve the product. Yet I do understand the frustration and the cynicism that's out there, skepticism if you will, in regards to fans' attitude. It's an attitude, I think, internally we've got to change, and I think we're moving in that fashion to do that within the company as well. It's just that it gets hard year after year after year. The players . . . a lot of times people will say, 'So-and-so is a disgruntled player, he's got a bad attitude.' My personal opinion is that if you were on a team as an athlete, and you had lost for the six, eight years you've been with that team, to some degree you feel like you're beating your head against the wall, no matter who's the GM or who the players are coming up. Hey, it's just not happening. The bottom line for me is. . . our job is we've got to improve the product. We've got to show you we can win.

CP: In hockey, you don't win the Stanley Cup every year. Twenty-nine other teams have to figure out how to win it, and it's the same every year. I don't have the time to be a full-time baseball fan, but I'm a casual observer and I've been impressed with what I've seen from the Pirates. It's an exciting group of people, and every day I look to see what Jason Bay is doing. I'm caught up in what they're doing. I think it's really neat.

DL: Of course he was at last night's game. . .

CP: No, I wasn't (laughing). What happened last night?

DL: We won late. After giving it up, we tied it back up and won. It was exciting for the fans -- not the general manager.

PSR: How do you reconcile the fact that rebuilding projects take time, and yet your own job security might be compromised if ownership doesn't see constant progress toward the goal? How critical is it for ownership to understand the difficulty of what you're trying to do?

CP: I think ownership understands, but there's other pressures that play into your job security beyond what the owner understands. I'm sure it's the same for Dave. You don't want to be in rebuilding for much longer than today. You want it to turn around tomorrow, or by midnight tonight.

PSR: You want that, but you know it doesn't happen.

CP: I don't believe that. I believe it's quite possible. Like I'm impressed with what the Pirates are doing, I was impressed with what Edzo did this year, how some of our guys came along, impressed with how we finished the season and I'm anxious to start. I know we're going to be a lot better. First of all, we're going to have Mario and Mark Recchi in the lineup, which we didn't have last year. Right away, I know we're going to be better. We've got Jackman for the whole year. So I'm excited. I can't wait to start. I hope the union feels the same.

DL: When I first came in, we had the worst record in baseball and were kind of dealing with the five-year plan that was supposed to be as we moved into the new ballpark and that type of stuff. . . my view on it is not rebuilding, and it's not in regards to the semantics. It's more or less to get as good as you can as fast as you can. I sense that's the goal of every general manager. Now we have a system where we have a very extensive minor-league program, and we've had some older guys, and a lot of times people will say, 'Go young and that will be the answer to everybody's problems.' And it sounds OK on the surface, it sounds OK from the outside, but when you're in it internally, you realize also you have to have a competitive product on the field. You can say, 'Let's go young,' but what happens is the young players get exposed. If they're not ready for that level of play, pretty soon in a week, you're going to have the same people who said 'Let's go young' all of a sudden go, 'Well, you know that guy, even though he's 32 and really hasn't been here that long, he's not a bad player.' So there's some balance that I've learned. . . maybe as a former scout and having other positions, I had some of that attitude: 'Why don't we just strip it down and go young, and this will be our future.' But the reality is there's pressures to put a competitive a team out there and at the same time, in our situation, knowing that we have to develop the players within. But you just can't throw them all out there, because a lot of times they're not ready. We go through the growing pains nightly with so many guys. We were in San Diego last weekend, and Lloyd McClendon and I were talking and just saying that when you have a bunch of young guys, if you have one guy have a rough night, which can happen with young guys, sometimes you can cover that up if you get some other good play around them. But you start having two guys have a bad night, now. . . it may be tough to overcome. Those are the growing pains sometimes you forget about when you say, 'Let's strip it down and go young.' There's a balance. You have to keep pushing forward and show that you want a good product on the field, because the fact is you need the consumer, you need the fans to come out and watch the game. As Craig mentioned the pressures on ownership and that type of thing, if we want to have a good product, part of it is we want to be able to have the resources to pay players. And how we get those resources is by people watching TV and by people coming to the park. And the way they come to the park and watch TV is by having a competitive product. So it works hand in hand.

CP: And if you go too young too quick, the development gets off track. You end up with a lot of sour young players that aren't going anywhere.

PSR: How does it make you feel professionally when you go to make a trade specifically to help improve or ensure the financial situation of the franchise, knowing when this trade is made the public sentiment is going to be against you, dealing a Jagr or dealing a Ramirez?

DL: My approach is that I'm a team player and I'm doing what's best for the organization. I understand there's certain responsibilities that come with this position and I'm up for the task. I know sometimes there are some short-term pains and as fans it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel and the reason why certain things are done. But my professional approach is that I know we're trying to do the right thing and that there's a plan in place and with experienced people and competent people we can achieve what we want to do. Sometimes there's some tough decisions that need to be made.

CP: You have to do things sometimes that you don't like and other people don't like. But you're a team player. In our case, over the years we've let a lot of people go for financial reasons. But we've held onto all of them for as long as we possibly could. And then when we realized we had to let them go. . .you just have to let them go. It's for the survival of the team. Fans, I think, long-term will appreciate that because we're still playing hockey in Pittsburgh.

PSR: As you push your teams forward toward your goal, do you set some mileposts that tell you how you're doing along the way? Can you measure it simply in wins and losses?

CP: It's not strictly wins and losses, no, but it sure would help if it came out that way. You keep an eye on everybody, how they're doing, not only in the major league city but in the minors. I'm sure Dave has. . . how many cities do you have to keep track of?

DL: Eight.

CP: I only have one and few players (laughing), so it's a lot different for me. But you've got to keep track of how everyone is progressing and you have to evaluate not only the players on the ice but the people that are working with them on and off the ice. You just keep an eye on all of it and make sure everything's going in the right direction. And when things tail off, you've got to make a few changes to get things back on track.

DL: I look at the individual players as to what I think my fair expectations are based on the input that I'm getting from a lot of scouting people and staff people. A lot of times I look at it as: do I see them achieving what we expected? . . . It always computes in some way to wins and losses in my mind, but I also look at it from the perspective of, 'Are we achieving from an offensive standpoint? Do we have the kind of power I anticipate that we'd have?' Now, we don't have much power on our team and I anticipated that in spring training. To be where we're at in runs scored or home runs does not surprise me. The reality is you have to deal with what your expectations are, and you have to have fair expectations.

PSR: We've talked about having resources. Is having unlimited resources, as some teams like the Rangers or Yankees do, really the best scenario for a GM, or does that bring other pressures?

CP: One of the teams in our league has unlimited resources, and they've failed more than we have in recent years, so I wouldn't be hoping for that.

DL: This is a definite professional challenge. Though as Craig said, it is every year. As you talk among your peers, there are certain people that have more money and they can pay their middle relievers $3 million while I can pay my middle relievers $500,000. We're looking at a different market. But as you look at expectations and other pressures that go with it, I'm sure there's a different approach in that regard. Not to say that I accept the position that we're in, because certainly the goal is always to win. There is a definite challenge for people who enjoy trying to do a lot with not as much, trying to be as efficient and productive as you can. It makes you work harder and smarter. . . the whole issue of less margin of error is in everything you do, every decision you make. You have to be right, and it hurts you more, certainly, when you're wrong. That million dollars you're spending that goes to someone who's not productive, man I wish I had that to use for some other area, but I don't. Someone else maybe can go out and get another replaceable part to fit in for the mistake they made, but I can't. I've got to live with it. That's the reality that I deal with. I don't make it as an excuse, but I kick myself when I do it. It makes me mad.

PSR: You've talked about getting veterans to fill gaps for you while players develop. You need these veterans to produce, yet ideally some of them also would help along the younger players. Of course, later in their careers many guys aren't interested in that; they want to win. How hard does that make it to get the right kind of veterans, and do players today embrace that kind of role?

DL: Go ahead, Craig. These are things where I'm curious about his insight.

CP: I think it's very important to have quality people as your veteran people. I think we were fortunate to pick up Mark Recchi; I think he's a quality, quality person both on and off the ice. He's very productive, led the Flyers in scoring last year. And to get Mario back, the premier player in the game and leader in the game. . . he doesn't say a lot, but he brings people along. He's really great. Dick Tarnstrom has also shown that he's a quality veteran person. You need those people. They're critical to your success.

PSR: In hockey you often hear people say that players lead by example, just by how they carry themselves and how they approach their job, their training. So it's not always about putting your arm around somebody during bad times or making speeches, right?

CP: But they also say the right things at the right time. Mario doesn't say a lot, but when he says something, it's at the right time and it's very important to what's happening at that moment. And obviously, everybody listens to him. A coach or a manager needs people like that, that are on the bench with you, teaching the young guys what you're trying to teach. It's very important.

DL: One of the challenges I have, with limited resources when you're going out looking for those types of guys, you're not able to attain the A grade guy. So you're taking the player. . . the inside term is you're taking a player with some warts. Maybe he doesn't run as good, maybe he doesn't throw as well, he's older, he's had some injuries, maybe he's had some off-field issues. Then you have to really weed through some things. That's where you have to use your scouting people and contacts in the industry. We've had some good ones and we've had some bad ones during my tenure. It takes some work to find those guys that are filling in the gaps. The Suppans, the Mesas have been outstanding. Kenny Lofton, although he came with the perception of issues in the past, and maybe they're reality, I don't know. But he was great with us. He helped some of our younger players and he was a guy we loved having around. There were a few unnamed guys that maybe weren't as good, that we missed the boat on to some degree or didn't provide that, or maybe to the opposite end provided some problems that can lead guys in the wrong direction, too. It's risky at times taking on these guys.

PSR: Are the Penguins and Pirates competing for the same fan dollar?

CP: I don't know that I've ever felt that. I would say the entertainment dollar is limited in a smaller market, and that puts pressures on the consumer for sure.

DL: The sports fan in general probably has interest in both. I'm sure there's that very loyal, passionate group that may be solely Penguins or solely Pirates.

CP: I think the rabid fan for hockey probably doesn't come to many baseball games, but the casual fan in either sport, I think they put aside money for both, and the Steelers, too.

DL: Just as a fan myself, with teams doing well. . . there's a pride that people have, an excitement and energy about wanting to see teams. To some degree (laughing), we're all fair-weather fans. I want to go see the team that's winning, too. You look at Pitt basketball right now and how successful they are, it's hard to get seats. That's a nice thing to have in the community. I think that certainly can be shared.

CP: Within our organization, and we've talked about it, we feel that we want the Pirates to do well and the Steelers to do well, to get the fan excited about sports in the city. I think it bodes well for all the sports if everybody's doing well.

PSR: There's always a debate here about whether Pittsburgh is a good sports town or just a town of fans willing to support the Pirates and Penguins when the conception is you have a chance to contend for the playoffs. How do you feel about that?

CP: I've been here 15 years and I think it's a great sports town. The fans get down on you when you're not doing great, but they should. They still support you. They want. . . all they want to see is a little bit of hope so they can still pull for you to do well. It's the best sports town I've been in, and I've been in a few of them.

DL: It appears to me, and I hear this from a lot of others, that there's a hungry Pirates fan that is dying to have the Pirates start winning. Obviously, that plays into the number of years we haven't won. In my opinion, there's more enthusiasm at the games, there's more energy and life to the fans. . .this year than we've had the last couple of years. It points to, to some degree, that it is a team that's there's some hope with the way we've played at times and also because it's a younger, more talented group and you can see this team being together for a while. My sense is that people love sports here and really relate to it. I'm anxious to get winning.

PSR: Both of your teams had remarkable turnarounds recently, the Penguins breaking that 18-game winless streak with a 10-3-2 streak and the Pirates winning 20 of 26 games after a long losing streak. What did those turnarounds tell you about the team you have?

CP: I wish I knew (laughing). . . You can guess at certain things. Certainly our power play from January on was the best in the league, and people started getting confidence in it and we were winning games purely because we were scoring more on the power play.

PSR: Forget about trying to identify the source of the turnaround, then. Did you learn anything about your players?

CP: I learned a lot more during the 18-game winless streak. You see more in people when things aren't as they should be. Strong people pull themselves out of it. The ones that aren't so strong fall by the wayside.

DL: I couldn't say it better. The one thing about baseball is I see our club really driven with wins or losses based on starting pitching. When we get good starts, we have a very good chance to win those games. We get lousy starts, and we had a long run of lousy starts, and we don't win as many games. Anybody can deal with wins. It's easy when youre going good. But when you've got it going bad, it's a bad feeling when you're in that deep, dark hole and the trap door opens. You don't know if you're going to win another game. It's a hard feeling to describe.

PSR: In a perfect world, you draft a guy, he moves through the minor-league system at a steady rate, reaches the big time and then improves until he becomes the player he should be. But of course it rarely happens that way. There are always bumps in the road. How do you know when you've seen enough of a player, when you resign yourself to the fact he's not going to be what you hoped? How do you know when it's time to pull the plug and move on?

CP: Sometimes circumstances dictate that. I rarely give up on somebody. But sometimes they just never get it done the way you want and you have to get somebody else to come and do it. In hockey, teams give up on players and they become Martin St. Louis. You have to be careful giving up on a young player. The way our system is set up, after three years they need waivers to go down to further develop. If they've developed to the point where they're pretty good but you don't know if they can do it at the NHL level, sometimes you have to keep them here because you take the chance of losing a Martin St. Louis if you put him on waivers. Sometimes that dictates what you do with your roster. But there comes a point in time, you're right, that you have to make up your mind. Usually, the players makes up your mind for you. But I always regret those decisions because you never know how it's going to turn out with 23-year-olds or 24-year-olds. To me, that's too early. I didn't turn into a player until I was 35 and retired (laughs).

DL: There's no doubt trying to evaluate personnel is so hard. In our case we do have a waiver system, too, where you only can option them to the minor leagues for so many years. And we also have the system where, in the first three years of their time in the major league, the club controls their salary. After that third year, they move into the arbitration system where salaries can jump up dramatically. The system makes you make calls after those first three years. That player with 0 to 3 years service time, we'll look at a player, review him, and we realize maybe it hasn't all come together but it's at a cost that's not prohibitive to us. Now as you move into that arbitration side for the next three years, now it becomes much pricier. So if you're not confident that the guy is going to be a value at $1.5, or $2.5, then you start having to make some tough calls. It is tough when you're young. We've got players. . . I'm always a little worried because it's hard to have success right away in the big leagues. Confidence determines a lot of that, and they can change so drastically when they get confident. You can fake it all you want, pat them on the back all you want, but until they have success, that's the only time they're going to start having confidence. Early on, it's a tough road and they stumble. They don't have a lot of confidence. Those are the times I know I've made mistakes. If I had to point to one period, it's with talented guys that haven't been able to establish themselves because they haven't gained confidence. Sometimes we're forced to deal them elsewhere with the system issues, and they're able to hit on it and get more confident because they're having success, and now you have a player.